Mark Drakeford has said the Home Office shouldn't have responsibility for Ukrainian refugees due to its "hostility" towards people from across the world.

The first minister answered questions on a range of issues when he gave evidence to Parliament’s Welsh Affairs committee and also accused the UK Government's secretary of state for Wales of not properly understanding the cost of making coal tips safe.

When he was asked about supporting refugees from Ukraine the Labour first minister referenced the 'hostile environment' policy championed by former prime minister Theresa May when she was home secretary.

It was hailed as a 'zero tolerance' approach to immigration control but became synonymous with the unlawful sanctioning - and deportation - of mainly black Britons who had the lawful right to residence in the UK.

As well as answering questions on Ukraine the first minister was quizzed on relations with the UK Government, including on Covid testing, coal tips and something called the Sewell Convention. 

Here is what the first minister, who gave evidence over a video link, had to say on those issues. 

Strip Home Office of responsibility to Ukraine refugees

Drakeford said the generosity shown by people in Wales and the UK to those fleeing Ukraine had been “outstanding”. 

“That sense of generosity needs to be matched by the government that serves them at Westminster. 

“Frankly putting this in the hands of the Home Office is quite the wrong thing to do...with it’s long history of hostile regimes to people coming from elsewhere in the world.  

“The responsibility should be taken away from a department that has demonstrated its incapacity to mobilise to meet the response and put in the hands of a dedicated group of people, at the UK level, who will do what is necessary to allow those people, driven from their own homes and who will, temporarily in many cases, wish to have sanctuary in the United Kingdom to make sure that the actions of our government match the wishes of our people.” 

The first minister said it is mainly “women, children and elderly people” who are fleeing and a “sophisticated” country should be able to carry out any necessary security or identity checks when they have arrived in the UK. 

He said at present people fleeing a war zone are faced with bureaucracy. He also said whenever he has discussed the Ukranian situation with UK ministers they have expressed “empathy” and their wish for the UK to be “welcoming”. But he said actions aren’t matching those intentions. 

Relations with the UK Government and Covid testing 

The first minister was asked for his views on inter-governmental relations and a new system that has been set up. 

In response to whether he is confident a new forum for discussions between the UK’s four governments would be better than what has been in place previously the first minister said “if we are putting the bar there then I suppose I would be confident”. 

He said the forum that had been in place hadn’t met since Boris Johnson became prime minister (at the end of July, 2019) but he understood a meeting of the new group hasn’t yet taken place as there is currently no executive in Northern Ireland. Drakeford said “if that is the case then I have some sympathy with that as ideally you would want all four component parts to be there” for a first meeting. 

Meetings at other levels, including between finance ministers, are planned, Drakeford said. 

During the pandemic Drakeford said regular meetings, usually held on Wednesday afternoons and chaired by UK Government cabinet minister Michael Gove, had been held and worked well. 

But “recently that regularity and reliability has broken down. We were due to have a meeting of that group later this afternoon but I was told, as I was coming into the room, it is not going ahead, it didn’t go ahead the last time either.” 

Last week Welsh Government said it would be unable to continue to offer for free Covid testing on a mass basis and criticised the UK Government’s decision to end the current testing arrangements from April 1. 

READ MORE: Drakeford slams Johnson's 'cliff edge' approach to relaxing Covid restrictions

Drakeford said a decision had been taken, and supported by the Welsh Government, that testing should be funded on a pooled basis rather than through the Barnett system in which the devolved nations would be given money based on the amount set aside for testing in England. 

“About a month, or six weeks ago, we began to hear the UK Government intended to close the testing programme and other parts of the United Kingdom had different ideas about the speed at which that should be carried out and the scale of residual testing that would still be available across the UK.  

“These structures should have allowed us a space to reach agreement on that, but that never happened. In the end a unilateral decision was made by one partner, to a four nation agreement, to withdraw from it and I’m afraid that’s not been the greatest sign of the success of the arrangements that we’ve had in place which ought to have led to an agreed way forward rather than one partner deciding to go it alone.” 

Should Wales have its own Covid inquiry?

On a Wales specific Covid inquiry Bridgend Conservative MP Jamie Wallis asked him why he disagreed with his Labour colleague, the MP for Islwyn, Chris Evans that Wales should hold its own inquiry alongside the UK inquiry. 

Drakeford said: “As it happens I agree with the prime minister on this. We are both agreed that a UK wide inquiry, with a specific focus inside it on all the decisions that were made here in Wales, is the best way in which answers will be crafted to the many questions that inquiry will need to consider. Many of the decisions made, during the pandemic, were made on a four nation basis and even when we were exercising our own powers, to do things for ourselves, that was always within that UK context.” 

He said he is “very committed” to an independent inquiry and said he was confident in the appointment of Baroness Heather Hallett to chair the inquiry and her experience, including of devolution. 

What is the Sewel Convention? 

It’s the arrangement that applies when the UK Parliament wants to legislate on issues that are devolved to the Senedd, Scottish Parliament or Northern Ireland Assembly. 

Under it the UK Parliament will “not normally” make laws in devolved areas without the relevant devolved bodies having passed a motion giving their consent. 

But Drakeford said the current situation with the convention is “very serious”.  

Various UK Government had honoured it for “the best part of 20 years” but the first minister said that has “altered for the worst in recent times”. 

He said the first case was when the UK Parliament legislated to take the UK out of the European Union despite the devolved bodies not having consented to the act by which it was done. 

Drakeford said he didn’t agree with the UK Government overriding the lack of consent: “I could at least understand the argument that was a once in a lifetime...this was a major act of over riding constitutional significance.” 

He added: “The UK Government could argue, in that case, the condition ‘was not normal’. But now we see examples where the Sewel Convention has been ignored in the passage of the animal welfare sentencing act. 

“Well what possible explanation could there be for saying that could not be dealt with in the normal way?” He warned it is “very likely” the UK Government will “push ahead” with the professional qulifications bill which “once again the Senedd has not consented to”. 

READ MORE: Do Legislative Consent Memoranda threaten Welsh Senedd democracy?

“My anxieties are two-fold, it is that Sewel is being breached time after time and that it is being breached not just in very serious and exceptional pieces of legislation but in things that are the everyday diet of the legislator at Westminster.” 

He said the UK Government should accept and act on recommendations of strengthening Sewel made by a House of Lords committee. 

Simon Hart has 'misunderstood' coal tip safety issue

The first minister rubbished comments made by Welsh secretary Simon Hart and his deputy David TC Davies to the committee on coal tips a fortnight ago. You can read what the Conservative pair had to say here. 

“I read the secretary of state’s evidence to your committee. I try to be as generous as I can here, I thought the answers the committee were given misunderstood the nature of the debate.” 

Claims by both Hart and TC Davies that the cost of making the tips safe is £5 million a year are wrong, he said. 

“That is simply not the case. £5 million is what is spent now on year in, year out maintenance of the tips but that is not sufficient to keep them safe in an era of climate change. It wasn’t sufficient to keep the Tylorstown tip safe, it wasn’t sufficient to keep the Wattstown tip safe. We know from the non-devolved Coal Authority there are more than 30 tips in Wales at the most serious end of risk to communities. 

“The £500 million over 10 to 15 years is the figure the Coal Authority uses to make coal tips safe for contemporary conditions. Not £5m at all. That really did not represent the advice both governments have had.” 

Drakeford said it wasn’t plausible to suggest, as Hart had, that the devolution settlement made the Welsh Government responsible but said if Westminster doesn’t put up the cash he will fund the required work. But it would have to be at the expense of building schools, hospitals and all other services the Welsh Government must provide. 

“For the Treasury it’s £50m a year, over 10 years, that’s not make or break for them but it is for those communities.” 

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